Posts by Disillusioned JW

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Correction: The first two sentences of the last paragraph of my prior post should say the following. "Furthermore, Justin Martyr's argument that everyone who has a name received the name from someone older than them is false. Some people change their own name, thus making their current name one which they gave to themselves."

Vanderhoven7, the translators of the NKJV seem to also suspect that the NT originally had the name YHWH in quotes of the OT which had the name. I think partly because in regards to the words "LORD" and "GOD", they say the following in the Preface of the NKJV (at least in an edition which is copyright 1988). "In the present edition the name is so capitalized whenever the covenant name is quoted in the New Testament from a passage in the Old Testament." I also think I read more than a year ago that they said there is evidence that the Name was originally in the NT, but maybe it was some editor of a study edition of the Bible who said that instead.

Also keep in mind that prior to the 1940s no scholar in at least the past 1,000 years knew of any copies of the Septuagint OT which contained the Name, but in the 1940s some copies were found. Thus just because no known extant ancient copies of the NT contain the name, that doesn't prove there never very ancient copies of the NT which contained the Name. It also does NOT mean there never will be found ancient copies of the Greek NT (or Syriac/Aramaic NT) with the Name in them.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Thanks slimboyfat for quoting Gaston's words of "G. Howard points out that in none of the now considerable LXX texts from the first century is kyrios used for the tetragrammaton, which is written in Hebrew letters." That is something I did not know. Those words are a figurative "big eye opener" to me. That message is a huge revelation. I knew there were some LXX manuscripts which contained the tetragrammaton, but until now I didn't know that ALL of the LXX manuscripts from the first century CE lacked kyrios as a substitution for the tetragrammaton. WOW!

Vanderhoven7, your references to P47 does not not refute slimboyfat's (and Gaston's) claim since that manuscript (which you say that according to JWfacts "dates prior to 300 A.D.") is dated to very probably AFTER the 2nd century CE (after the year 200 CE) and slimboyfat says the NT was revised in the 2nd century CE (and thus before the year 201 CE). Also since "P66 dates from around 200 A.D." it might also be after (by a few decades) the time period which slimboyfat claims the NT was revised.

Paul's writings are from the mid 1st century CE and slimboyfat revealed that Gaston revealed that George Howard revealed that "that in none of the now considerable LXX texts from the first century is kyrios used for the tetragrammaton, which is written in Hebrew letters." Since Paul quoted from the scriptures in which the tetragrammaton was used in both the Hebrew Scriptures text and from the Greek Septuagint text (the latter being being revealed us as the case, as stated above), isn't that strong evidence that Paul included the tetragrammaton (YHWH) in his original NT letters which contained those quotes? The congregations he wrote to all had a copy of the OT scriptures (whether in Hebrew or in Greek) which included the tetragrammaton in the text! If they had noticed that Paul's letters to them had used the word kyrios in place of the tetragrammaton wouldn't they been alarmed?

Regarding the quote which Vanderhoven7 provided of Justin Martyr (who was a Hellenized Samaritan before becoming a Christian), I get the impression that Justin Martyr was lying in implying that God the Father has no name. Surely he would have seen the name used in the Scriptures if he ever read them in the Hebrew or Samaritan texts, or even in the Greek Septuagint text (since we now know the Greek Septuagint manuscripts contained the name). He lived from AD 100 – c. AD 165, thus he must have have seen the name in the OT scriptures - unless the revision of the Septuagint (to exclude the name) had already taken place in the 2nd century CE before Justin Martyr began reading the scriptures as a Christian and even as a person of the Samaritan religion.

Furthermore, Justin Martyr argument that everyone who has name received the name from someone older than them is false. Some people change their own name, thus making their current name one which gave to themselves. Furthermore, the OT teaches that (or at least makes the implication) that YHWH gave his name "YHWH" to himself.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

The idea that "there is no access to the Father without the Son" is a Christian idea not held by Jews who practice Judaism. The Bible book of Psalms contains numerous prayers to YHWH without invoking the name Yeshua. A great many of Jews of deep religious faith pray to God (using the Hebrew word meaning "Lord") and believe as much as devout Christians that God hears their prayers. The model prayer in the gospels of Matthew and Luke instructs the followers on how to pray, yet nowhere does it invoke the name of Jesus or the word Christ (though admittedly in other parts of the gospels Jesus instructs his followers to ask in his name when asking something of the Father).

No better results are obtained when Christians (whether non-JW Christians or Jehovah's Witnesses) pray to God than when people practicing Judaism pray to God, or when Muslims pray to God. The results are same as when atheists contemplate what they want in their lives.

Of course I have high conviction that no prayer reaches God/god (any god) and that there is no holy spirit (or any spirit being), since I'm now an atheistic naturalist.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

slimboyfat, are you saying that none of the pre-2nd century CE extant copies of the Septuagint contain the divine name? I thought most of those did. Are you saying there are hardly any extant pre-2nd century CE copies of the Septuagint? Are you saying that all of those manuscripts use the divine name in the places where the same verses in the Hebrew language manuscripts of the OT say "YHWH?

If you are saying such, then what you are saying in your posts makes a very strong case that what the WT has been saying (since the release of the 1950 first printing of the Christian Greek Scriptures of the NWT, and perhaps even since 1948 when the WT saw copies of Septuagint fragments containing the tetragram) about the removal of the name "YHWH" from the NT is true. If a pre-3rd century CE manuscript of any portion of the NT were to be found containing the name "YHWH" and if such were to be published in a scholarly journal, that would have a tremendous effect upon modern Christian theology and upon the credibility of some of the the WT's long held teachings!

A moment ago I did an internet search on the words 'scholar "Lloyd Gaston" yahweh' and in doing so I found your comments posted at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6276841381822464/most-successful-teaching-jehovahs-witnesses-amazing-new-book-on-divine-name .

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

waton, I am sorry that my use of the word "touché" in a reply to you seemed dismissive to you. I merely used the word to concisely convey the idea that you made an excellent rebuttal to what I had said in an earlier post about the frequency of the use of the name "Jehovah" in the scriptures.

slimboyfat, the idea that very early "editors of the New Testament wanted to blur the lines between Jesus and Jehovah" is an idea I had for many years and It is an idea that the WT has long taught, but I am currently unsure if the idea is correct. I was thinking that it is very hard to believe that is true since not even one extant NT manuscript has the name YHWH in it. If any manuscripts had had it I thought it would have been nearly impossible to eradicate all copies which had it.

But perhaps you and Trobisch are right in saying some ancient NT manuscripts had it. I think that because a lot of ancient Jewish (including Torah keeping Jewish Christian) religious literature and a lot of ancient alternative Christian literature were so effectively destroyed by Christians that the literature is no longer extant. Scholars also say that some passages in ancient rabbinical literature seem to say that a number of Jews long ago destroyed all copies they found of Christian literature which contained the divine name (YHWH). In numerous cases scholars say we know the names of numerous ancient religious books (due to citations) though we have no extant copies of them, not even known tiny fragments of them.

Just as we know (due to a leaked document) that the WT now instructs that all copies of certain old WT literature be removed (and in a number of cases, be trashed) from all kingdom hall literature counters, perhaps some 2nd century CE church leaders instructed all Christian congregations to replace all their NT manuscripts with revised ones which entirely lacked the name "YHWH".

But here is the thing. If the name YHWH was removed from all extant manuscripts of the NT books (or if so many copies of the NT containing The Name were destroyed such that no extant copies exist), why did YHWH allow that to happen? If it did happen doesn't it indicate that YHWH doesn't actually exist. To me, if such did happen then it is strong evidence that YHWH is entirely a figment of human imagination. To me it is inconceivable that if YHWH as described in the OT really exists, that he would allow such to happen to the NT.

What living author who uses his or her own personal name many times in his or her multiple copyright protected books (especially in autobiographies), who owns the copyrights to those books, would allow any editor and/or any publisher of those books to eradicate all mention of the author's name from the author's books?

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

This post is a recreation (but with modifications, including enhancements and expansions) of what I intended to post earlier but accidentally deleted.

Rattigan350, I agree with you that according to the New Testament Jesus is one of the witnesses of Jehovah. I also agree with you that the context of what was said is important. I also agree that it is not necessary that a specific phrase be used, provided the context clearly indicates the same meaning.

blondie, according to John 17:4-17 Jesus is one the witnesses of God the Father (Jehovah/YHWH). According to the chapter those verses are a record of some of what Jesus said in prayer to God the Father (Jehovah). Note the following. In verse 4 Jesus tells the Father that he (Jesus) has glorified the Father on the earth. Verse 6 (1984 NWT) records Jesus as saying to the Father "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world." Verse 8 says that Jesus gave the men the sayings which the Father gave to Jesus, and Jesus says he came as the representative of God the Father. In verse 14 Jesus says he gave the word of the Father to the men. In verse 17 Jesus says that the Father's word is truth and in verse 18 Jesus tells the Father "you sent me forth into the world".

Clearly those verses in the Gospel of John (that is, the Gospel attributed as being according to John) indicate that according to that gospel Jesus is a witness of God the Father (Jehovah/YHWH). The NT also says that Jesus is a great prophet of Jehovah God the Father. Revelation 1:5 (1984 NWT) even says that Jesus Christ is "the Faithful Witness" and Revelation 3:14 (1984 NWT) says that the "Amen" (whom the verse says is the "the beginning of the creation of God", whom we know the Bible says is Jesus Christ) is "the faithful and true witness". Doesn't such mean that according to the NT that Jesus is thus a great witness of Jehovah God the Father?

Vanderhoven7, the fact God Jehovah (Jehovah God) did not make sure that his name was included in the New Testament, coupled with the fact that modern-day biblical scholars do not know for sure the correct pronunciation of his name, is part of the strong evidence to me that Jehovah God doesn't exist.

That is because the OT claims that numerous times YHWH, when speaking to a number of the prophets, said that his specific name of YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) must be proclaimed to the people! According to the OT YHWH wanted his name, not merely his reputation and accomplishments, but his literal specific name of YHWH, to be proclaimed extensively to the people! If such a God exists then it is shocking that the NT (in any of the extant ancient manuscripts) doesn't use his name even one time. But if Jehovah/Yahweh God doesn't exist, then there no mystery why the his name isn't used in the NT. These things are thus part of the evidence that the Bible (whether the OT or the NT or both, like the Apocrypha) is entirely the word of humans, and not at all the world of YHWH God or of any god.

Folks, regarding John chapter 17 there is something I find very puzzling in verse 11. There it claims that Jesus told God the Father "... your own name which you have given me ...". What name is this gospel account claiming Jesus said was the Holy Father's name which was given to Jesus?

Is it the name YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah? If so, then why doesn't the NT ever mention that name in any of the extant ancient manuscripts? Granted NT says that the name Jesus was given to Christ by God (according to Matthew 1:20-21), and that name means "Jehovah is salvation", but that is not the same name as "Jehovah". The NT says that Christ, besides being named Jesus, was also called "Lord" and said to be "God/god". Are either of those 'names' the name of the Father that the NT says was given to Christ? In at least one verse Paul applied the word "Lord" to Jesus when quoting a verse in the OT in which the word "Lord" is used in the Greek Septuagint in place of the name Yahweh/Jehovah.

Matthew 1:22-23 says that Jesus was to be called "Immanuel", but nowhere else in the NT is that name used. I wonder why it is used nowhere else in the NT.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Hey GodBeliever. in your post, the one dated to three hours prior this post of mine, you used four verses that I had had planned to use in an upcoming post (the pending one I said I had accidentally deleted). You preempted me; impressive.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Rattigan350, blondie, and Vanderhoven7, I typed up a post which was a reply to all of you, but I accidentally deleted it from computer memory before saving a copy of it in a text file. I will try to recreate it from my memory but it probably won't be as good as what I originally wrote.

JW GoneBad, the examples you gave of the manner of usage of the name "Jehovah" at Kingdom Halls of JWs, including in public prayers, also sounds strange to me. I never used it in that manner at the Kingdom Halls or elsewhere, and I was a ministerial servant for several years.

waton, I don't know French, except for a few French words. But according to Google, I learned that "jusqu'à quel profondeur?" means "how deep?", or something like that. But the word "profondeur" seems very similar to the English word "profound" and based upon the context I wonder if "jusqu'à quel profondeur?" is more accurately translated into English as "how profound?' Google even says "profound" in English translates into "profond" in French. Do you speak much French?

I used the word "touché", despite it being French, because it is often used in English as part of English sentences and I thought it was a fitting reply to make to you. Likewise the French word "résumé" is often used in English, but because of widespread communication using computers with keyboards which lack non-English characters, in the USA and on the internet (on English language sites) it is now often spelled without the accent marks.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

waton, touché.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

According to the book which is commonly called the "Holy Bible" what name does the God of that book most frequently emphasize? Is it the name Jehovah (Yahweh/YHWH) or Jesus (Iesous/Yeshua/Joshua)? It is the name Jehovah (Yahweh/YHWH). Right?

Before the New Testament began to be written, what name did the holy scriptures of the Christians use the most? It was Jehovah (Yahweh/YHWH), [though probably they most often read it as Kyrios (Lord)]. Right? The Old Testament is still considered a part of the holy scriptures of Christians. Right? What name does the Old Testament in Hebrew emphasize?